Table Hockey Heaven

[PaulShabi26]

Does anyone know what table hockey game is the best in North America which would be either the Carleco/Coleco 5380, the Henry Game, or the Irwin PP2 Game. They are all great games but I want, if anyone could. Tell me some details about each game so I know which one is the best one. I know that the Henry Game is no longer being manufactured right now. Irwin does not make the PP2 Games right now anymore but Sid Kloosterman in Ontario Makes Custom Built PP2 Stadium Games of his own. Carlo Bossio Makes the Carleco 5380's and some leagues and tournaments still use the Original Coleco 5380s.

Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks!
Paul S.

[sklump]

Getting parts for Henry or PP2 would be difficult.

There are about as many Coleco events, maybe more, as Stiga in North America (although I couldn't guess how many might be in your area). So if you're interested in tournaments, I'd favour Coleco for sure. There's one PP2 event every year (still?), and I don't know any Henry events.

[PaulShabi26]

[PaulShabi26]

Well yeah! The parts are hard to get considering the fact that they are no longer being made. There was a Henry Event for two years in a row (2005, 2006) CCTHF Sactionated Event. In Hamilton, Ontario. The Henry Game is the only Table Hockey Game with flats that has the goalie rod on the left like the Stiga Game. There is the Ontariotablehockey.com. Their official game is the Irwin PP2 with Flats. The Irwin PP2 Games are no longer being manufactured. I remember it from like a year ago or something that Irwin would not be making the game. Although, PTHA President Sid Kloosterman still makes them as the Irwin PP2 Stadium Games. He makes his own player decals. If you go on the Ontario Table Hockey Webpage, click on SK Stadiums. Look at #1 "The Building of a PP2 Stadium Game" By Sid Kloosterman. It shows you how you could build your own PP2 Stadium Game. If you email him, then he would make one for you. Like Carlo Bossio and the Carleco Games. The Coleco in my opinion is the best I would say because it has replaceable parts, lots of tournaments in Canada and the US. A lot of people playing it. Especially the good and the very good players here in Quebec, Canada, and United States. So it is very good for right now what is happening with the Coleco-Carleco Game.

BTW: There are still PP2 tournaments and they are played all over Ontario. Cities like Ajax, Peterborough, Cambridge, Petawata.

Paul S.

[aj5380]

Paul, Congrats on becoming the #1 player in North America. To answer your question, I did a scientific study of several table hockey games a few years ago.

© Copyright 2005 aj5380

My objective was to determine:

How much of the ice surface is contested space (see CONT. % and AREA below), that is, where 2 players can get to and do something with the puck?

vs.

How much of the ice surface is solo space (see SOLO % and AREA below) where only one player can get to the puck and the other player can do nothing but wait.

Here are the results:

GAME----------CONT----SOLO----TOT. ----CONT---SOLO--GAME-----GAME
TYPE -----------AREA----AREA----AREA----AREA----AREA---LENGTH-WIDTH
--------------------%-------%------SQ.IN.--SQ.IN.---SQ.IN.----IN.------IN.

STIGA------------29%----71%-----556------164----392-----32.5"----17.75"

COLECO 5340--41%----59%-----694------282----412-----34.5"----20.50"

IRWIN PP2------54%----46%-----504------274----230-----32.5"----15.75"

COLECO 5380--66%----34%-----638------420----218-----34.0"----19.00"

Measurements in inches +/- 5% error margin. (1 in. = 2.54 cm)

There are facts.

Conclusion: The Coleco 5380 has the highest percentage of contested area. You can only play solo only on 33% of the ice surface, compared to the other games where up to 70% of the ice is covered only by one player. Which is why the 5380 is known as a tight checking game more than the others.

© copyright 2005 aj5380

[PaulShabi26]

Thanks AJ! Actually, I was number one in the United States. Not North America. Bjarne Axelsen of Denmark is number one in NA.

Thanks for the post of the numbers. I am sure that they will help me understand. I played in the Coleco US Open Tournament this year. The Coleco Games were very nice games. Both Original and Custom. I only won 3 games. I played Burt and he beat me 8-0.

AJ, Will you have the Coleco Classic Cup in January of 2012 or something like that? The Stiga Las Vegas is in October this year. BTW, You have some really nice games and I wish that I could play there someday.

Paul S.

[DeadlyRedly]

I dont know anything about Henry, but for PP2 & Coleco, I would maybe go with PP2 if your in the Toronto area because of all the options of were you can play. But as for anywhere else in North America id go with the Coleco/Carleco.
_________________
Check our club out at www.coleco.webs.com

[PaulShabi26]

So what if I live in Michigan, then I would have to go with the Coleco/Carleco right? I think that that would be a good thing for me.

There is not so much Coleco in Michigan. There is a lot of Stiga in Michigan which is really unique.

Paul Shabi

[mvthl]

In Michigan, I think that the most appropriate thing to do would be to start a Crystal Ice league.

Know your history.
_________________
Kenny

[PaulShabi26]

Yeah Thanks Kenny but I trying to start playing Coleco, not Munro Crystal Ice. Sorry buddy. . But I do understand what you are talking about.

PS: I know my table hockey and my history very well!

Yours Truly,
Paul

[DeadlyRedly]

[PaulShabi26]

That's not bad! Not bad at all. Hey what kind of Coleco Game do you think is the best one? A custom built Coleco 5380 (Carleco), or a fixed up Original Coleco 5380 (Like the ones that Ajit Sarma has for his Coleco Classic Cup).

Paul

[DeadlyRedly]

[TheStein]

Bob Ingo's original 5380 is the best playing 5380 I have played on recently, including those at John Powers tournament in NJ last month made by M Labelle. Nice work Bob!
_________________
The Stein

[brotzp]

Ken is right, the Munro Crystal Ice league would be Awesome!!! But Sid, Ivan, Larry, etc.. just don't have it in them anymore. I tried to get them out of retirement.

We did have a Crystal Ice Doubles tournament at the 2009 Detroit tournaments. We played muti-board doubles, we set-up 2 Carleco and 2 Crystal Ice games.....Then we broke it out by who was best on which board. A weekend of Carleco 5380, Stiga, and Munro...

Steve, you loved Bob's game in Detroit, I remember the sweep well!!!!

Sorry to say those days might be past...It is a shame and a couple of locals can take some blame...

Paul, I have several Carleco's and maybe we can get the Motor City 5380 running again in 2012. I also have a Crystal Ice in the restoration process, but it will take some time for me to complete.

Keep working at it!!!!!! You have my support for what that is worth....

[PaulShabi26]

I saw some on ebay in the past and they look sweet. I tried them out back in 2009 as well as the Carleco. I actually played Coleco in Lemont this year. I played on the Bob Ingo Blackhawks game and it was fine. How much does a Crystal Ice cost? 500? maybe 600 dollars?

Paul

[PaulShabi26]

[brotzp]

The Crystal Ice games are what the market will dictate. Finding one for sale is difficult...

Carleco and the other 5380 units that are specially made are a good investment, the games are built to last compared to the Stiga game.

AJ's copyright?? measurements are minus the different Munro boards, but his point about tight checking is correct, Munro was never a tight checking game.

For those who get to hear Don Cherry all of the time, he won't be surprised at all by Aj's findings, because he states the Euro's never like to hit anyway.

[PaulShabi26]

I guess that that would mean something! That sounds like something that I would find out about.

Paul

[EricK]

Like the idea of bringing the Motor City 5380 back...been thinking about that as well as we play more and more Coleco in Chicago...and I actually have a game of my own now.

Believe I played in one and kept score for ya in two others. Everyone seemed to have a great time in those tournaments...a very good vibe.

The next big Detroit table hockey weekend is in March 2012...a Friday late afternoon Coleco thing could be put together if we planned it. Sunday also is a (remote) possibility, but the room would get expensive and I know many like to travel back home on Sunday.

Fairly sure I could assemble 6-8 Carleco games by begging and borrowing.

[PaulShabi26]

We should bring it back for the year 2012. We should have some sweet Carleco Games brought in and it would be nice. I don't know about this but do you think we will play in the same venue for when we play the Saturday Stiga Tournament or would it be at a different venue like the Coleco and Stiga US Open Tournaments where they are played? I wish that if the Motor City Classic came back, that someday it would be part of the Quebec Table Hockey Tour (Hockey Sur Table Quebec). This tournament would be all Custom Coleco 5380 Tournament.

The Stiga North American Championships is on March 24th, 2012, (Saturday) and the Coleco Tournament on March 23rd (Friday)

Paul

[aj5380]

Paul, it’s great to see the enthusiasm you bring to this forum. I'll add some observations regarding your question on which style of 5380 is better. Let me compare the Labelle/Carleco and Coleco 5380s.

If I were entering this world today, I would pick the Labelle/Carleco game as my game because that’s what everyone has, and everyone competes on.

However, I entered this world some time ago, and a good original Coleco 5380 feels like driving a Ferrari because it is delicate (and it’s vintage).


1. The original Coleco 5380 board (if found in good shape) requires less physical effort to play than the Labelle/Carleco.
2. Using the original Coleco pucks (either the original hollow Coleco puck with square sides or the original solid puck) with solid plastic players creates a completely different game on the ice than the glue filled PP2 pucks that are more difficult to lift for slapshots, or for clearing passes out of your zone.
3. The original Coleco games deaden the puck when the puck hits the boards giving less of a billiards effect found in the Labelle/Carleco games. Original boards were made of plastic and a thin metal sheet rather than a solid 2 x 4 wood. When you hit the boards with the puck on an original game, the puck deadens coming off the boards.
4. It’s easier to see the puck in the original Coleco games because the boards are 1 3/8” high as opposed to approx. 2 ½ ” high on the Labelle/Carleco.
5. Nobody cuts their hands when playing on an original Coleco 5380.
6. Over time, the board will warp if unless you take really good care of it.

If you think this is one sided so far, then please continue reading:

1. The Labelle/Carleco 5380 boards are backed with ½” MDF making the playing surface completely level, something the original lacks because it is made with 1/8” masonite.
2. The Labelle/Carleco 5380 board is built like a truck, and can withstand bumps during transportation much more easily because of its construction.
3. Some versions of the Carleco 5380 have slot patterns that eliminate the “dead spot”. The same can be done for the original but requires a new playing sheet to be cut.
4. The Labelle/Carleco 5380 come “ready to play” whereas the original requires you to make a stand (to keep the game level), and install glass (to keep the puck in).
5. If you smash the playing surface when you get angry, the Labelle/Carleco board can take it, the original will break.
6. These boards stay flat and true forever.

In the table hockey world of Coleco, there are more championships with the Labelle/Carleco boards starting with the HTQ circuit 5 dates, New York City, Detroit and in Canada Johnny Good Guy Brampton ON, Andrew Ryall Open Durham ON.

Tournaments with the original boards are the Coleco Classic in Las Vegas, and California Cup in Los Angeles.

Lastly, the Coleco 5380 slot pattern was made from the from the original Eagle slot pattern. All Coleco games came from the factory with the center rod on the left side of the goalie. In the 1980s, Coleco switched the center rod to the right side of the goalie.

Today, all tournaments mentioned above use a Right Side Center except Johnny Good Guy which has stayed true to the original game.

The Coleco Classic and the California cup are the only tournaments when you can play right (if that what you are used to), and I can play left (because that’s what I am used to).
So neither of us has an excuse when we lose!

All the best and happy table hockey adventuring.

[PaulShabi26]

Thanks for the post AJ!

From what I just read in that post, I would now consider that the Labelle/Carleco as the best kind of Coleco 5380 Game from what I now know. That is because it is more stronger, more durable. Carrying handle for easier portability. It is a "ready to play" setup style game which means that when you get the game, all you just have to do is take it out and start playing it. It is well better made. Better flow of the game. Plays a lot better. won't break. It will last forever. . The one thing that is a concern about the Labelle/Carleco is that when you make a play on offense, when your hands move forward and you push them just a little too hard. Your hands will often hurt a lot and that is bad for the hands. But on the other side, the Labelle/Carleco Game is the best one and I reccomend myself to go get one.

Paul Shabi

[25tigers]

As it happens I am trying to start a new league up. I chose PP2 because 1) availability of games for sale on Kijiji ($50 bought me 2 games within about 2 weeks), 2) they are relatively new and the ice surface is decent, 3) plays similar to the eagle, coleco and munro games that I grew up with and played (though the winger in the corner is going to take some getting used to and 4 ) there are tournaments in my area (ie Cambridge, Toronto and Ajax. I saw the games on Ontario Table Hockey Association and they are great but out of my skill level. Hoping to find another easier idea to raise the game a bit off the table. Would welcome any ideas. Anyone interested in joining the league drop me a PM, I live in the Caledonia ON area about 25 minutes from Brantford, Hamilton, Dunnville, Cayuga.

[torontotablehockey]

Use the pp2... amazing possibilities for modifications, great playmaking for the beginner right to the expert... very available (as they are almost impossible to break, you can find them anywhere. I try for $5 at garage sales, and have scored quite a few). (*I think they will be back in production as well within a few years)
As for raising the level, we have tables, game stands, and of course the Sid Kloosterman personally made games. The first 2 links show our PP2 games in Petawawa, attacged to fold away tables that we built, and then a simple levelling system to keep all the games finely tuned.
http://ontario-table-hockey.2700121.n2.nabble.com/OVTHL-petawawa-2009-2010-td4470798.html
http://ontario-table-hockey.2700121.n2.nabble.com/PP2-levels-Petawawa-league-td4470729.html

As for a league, using both PP2 and a coleco (ex. home and away games!) is a great way to attract more players, have eye appeal, and learn plays that can be transferred from one game to the next. The OVTHL once ran on 4 different games, but then went to just the PP2 game, with fun side games to hammer away on for kicks.

http://ontario-table-hockey.2700121.n2.nabble.com/Toronto-Classic-Mini-tables-td2965623.html
This link shows game stands (*really cheap and easy to make) that have square pegs that lock onto whatever table size you have at home. We use these at the Toronto Classic, and everyone agrees that this height lift has helped prevent many a sore back!

Lastly, please make sure to look at
http://ontario-table-hockey.2700121.n2.nabble.com/
These shots of all the personalizes kloosterman games will show you how the eye appeal of PP2 can match that of the carleco games. They are both super, have parts available, have a good player base (so you will find takers to join your league), and are a helluva lot of fun!

For Ontario, PP2 is a good start, but Coleco has a good following too. A PP2 league does not yet exist, whereas the Johny Goodguy Coleco league runs in Brampton.

Hope this helps!
Mark